EPISODE 16: Ethical storytelling for nonprofits, with Magdalena Verdugo & Frank Velásquez

(Episode transcribed electronically)

Matt Pearl: Hello friends, this is DOT ORG, Episode 16, the podcast all about how nonprofits tell their stories. I'm your host, Matt Pearl. I was a broadcast journalist, a TV news reporter for 20 years. Now I run Pearl Impact Media, where I craft videos for nonprofits that get used and remembered. In addition to that, I also host this podcast where we help you build your nonprofits' storytelling strategy.

We are 16 episodes in and we're breaking new ground. Two guests! A special moment for a special, special subject, ethical storytelling, and how we protect our clients while advocating and fundraising for our organizations. My two guests today do this exactly through their work with YWCA of Southern Arizona. In the Tucson area, she is the CEO, he is the founder of 4 Da Hood, Magdalena Verdugo and Frank Velásquez. Welcome to DOT ORG.

Frank Velásquez: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Magdalena Verdugo: Thank you.

Matt Pearl: Happy to have you both. Question number one, and it's always the toughest. I'm gonna have each of you tell me about who you represent in thirty seconds or less. Magdalena we'll start with you. Tell us about the Y.

Magdalena Verdugo: As you mentioned, I'm the CEO of the YWCA. We've been in Tucson for over a hundred and nine years, serving our community. I always say that we're on a mission of eliminating racism and empowering women. And we do this through direct service, providing direct service and through what we're gonna speak to today is storytelling, sharing our stories.

Matt Pearl: All right, and Frank, you're up. In thirty seconds or less, tell us about 4 Da Hood.

Frank Velásquez: Well, if you go to my website, the tagline's right there says if got a story to tell, we got you. so what we do is we help organizations and individuals reclaim their narratives so that they can lead with more authenticity, courage, and unapologetic joy.

Matt Pearl: Beautiful. And Frank, you and I we've known each other for a bit now, and we were just kind of having a you know a chat over Google Meet a couple months back, and we were talking about the you know the various things that we like to talk about, and and I was mentioning my podcast and the things that we tend to cover. And you very quickly came back with Magdalena for the podcast and recommended that we interview her and you together, and specifically for this topic.

Before we dive in, I would love for you to share a little bit about why this topic is so necessary for non profits, no matter what stage they're in, and what made you think of Magdalena and her team's work at the Y.

Frank Velásquez: Great question. I think I want to start where storytelling is so important. How the stories are told, especially through the lens of the client, is critical. I've made tons of mistakes in my lifetime, or at least my career in the nonprofits, where how we tell stories, how the clients tell their own stories is critical. And so as Magda said earlier, their their mission is to empower women to eliminate racism.

And so that storytelling is so critical. And just the way that I've seen the YWCA work with their with their women and their families, not just in their storytelling, but just how they help them shape their businesses is incredible. So it was a natural thought to think, yeah, we need to get Magdalena and talk a little bit about what the YWCA of Southern Arizona does.

Matt Pearl: Magdalena, how would you describe your team's approach to storytelling? Where does it best show itself in terms of that approach?

Magdalena Verdugo: Storytelling for us, when I think of storytelling, it's really a collaboration, a partnership. It's a partnership with our participants, the individuals telling their story. we don't for us it's about not telling stories, about portraying people that are broke broken or help or helpless. It's really focused on resilience.

Self-efficacy, leadership, growth, the possibility, right, of what they've experienced. So we, I wanna believe, approach it very natural because the stories, when we open ourselves up to our participants, the stories just kind of flow flow in because our participants get to the point where they're excited to share the progress that they've they've made.

and to share how far they've come along. And so our team has been trained, I I always say trauma informed, trained to be able to listen and take in those stories. And we don't always use them. We have different ways that we use our stories or the format that we use our stories, but we keep them and we hold them, until we find that our our our participants are ready to share.

Matt Pearl: Magdalena, the upcoming episode of DOT ORG that we've got lined up after yours is all about building a storytelling culture within your organization. And I speak with the executive director of a nonprofit where I am here in Atlanta all about that. And and I don't want to steal too much of that thunder, but I think what you just said makes me want to ask you about the process of building what you've built there because you talked about training your team, you talked about participants.

Really being excited to share their stories, where I'm sure that wasn't always the case. How did you get to that point and how did you build that culture both within your team and among your participants and your clients?

Magdalena Verdugo: By sharing my story. By being very transparent with my experiences.

There's some excitement when I say I work at the YWCA or I represent the YWCA or I the CEO of the YWCA and really honing in on our mission of eliminating racism and empowering women. And so there's a reason, there's a passion there for me as to why I sit in that space. And so I think that when we open ourselves up genuinely, and share our values, we start aligning ourselves with individuals that hold the same values, the same perspective, and build that trust. I think that's the biggest thing. It's setting and building trust with our participants and with our team. Because we're not all of us, I don't think we recognize sometimes that we're storytellers.

When we share whatever we share, whether it's with our family and with our friends, the most of the time we're storytelling. And and I think one of the biggest things is to acknowledge that, that we're storytellers and accepting and embracing that. And then with our teams is really getting them in a point that storytelling is really not about telling people what to do or having a list of steps of like this is what you're gonna follow, but it's simply just pausing and listening. Just listening. And then they that's why I'm saying like they they come to us as individuals, our participants, whether it's through our women's business center or through our why works, which is our workforce readiness program. our women come in and at the inception, they may not know they have a story to share. They just know that at this moment in time, they have a need and that we're going to work together to meet that need for them. The stories come later once we start building that trust and that foundation and we start sharing and they start hearing themselves what got us to where we're at.

Matt Pearl: I love to hear that. I'd love to hear from you too, just what those stories end up looking like. Is it donor communication? Is it email blasts? Is it social media posts? is it video? Is it written? Is it photography? what does the what does the final product look like for your storytelling?

Magdalena Verdugo: My God, all of it, everything that you mentioned. I think that one of the things we started doing a couple of years ago was holding these graduations out column or ceremonies for all of our participants that go through our programming. And that's a point also where they get to share, if they're at a point where they can share. Because one of the biggest things too is we need to create a place, a s a safe place for them to be able to share their story. So in addition to trust, it's safe, you know, because sometimes we work with survivors and we don't want to jeopardize their safety. And sometimes sharing their story, whether it's in print or verbally, could jeopardize their their safety. So we're very thoughtful and mindful of of that.

And so we only take and put stories, and I'll say stories publicly, when our participants are ready to share that story. We will never post a story without our our our the individual, our participant, reading that story. I recently did a newsletter and in reference to International Women's Day, and we mentioned, we named about four women. One of them was our internal employee. And so we highlighted women's stories of resiliency, self-efficacy, and and celebration, right? Of growth and so forth.

We didn't go to print through the newsletter until each of those individuals got to read what we put together. Because what the way that it happened is I interview in some cases, I listen, and then I put I write it. And but I will never put anything out there that they haven't sh shared or that they don't feel safe, you know, sharing outside. So we do it through newsletter, we do it through email, we do it through annual report for our organization. We do it in spaces. We have an upcoming event next next week where we're doing in panel presentations where women get to come in and share their their stories. So yeah, in all format availability, you know, we'll do it. And thinking outside of the box too, right? Not staying within just one medium of sharing, but anything's possible.

Matt Pearl: So Frank, talk about where you come in in this process and specifically I'd love to hear about, you know, when the Y brings you in and they're showing you their storytelling and their communications. What are the things that you noticed early on? What are the things that you noticed that were strengths? What were the things that you noticed that, you know, that perhaps were blind spots? And how did that shape the work that you do?

Frank Velásquez: Great question. I want to say it to you in a couple of layers. I think the first one, so I've known Magdalena since she has started at the Y, which was in January of 2020, I believe. And so I never worked, I would say, directly with their clients. What I did was I wanted to help in two ways. One, I started a program called Ascending Leaders in Color. I've had a few of their staff go through that. That's all about reclaiming their own stories as individuals, but in a collective group, which was incredible. and then what Magdalena periodically will do, because I told her about asset-based language, how we talk about certain things, she'll usually run her communications, especially if it's like a year-end appeal letter, even the letter that she had just talked about about the the four women and their stories, she'll run a buy me just to see whether or not it's it's asset-based and it's it's leading with with aspirations. So that's how I've kind of really worked with that.

What I haven't done with with YWCA, but I'm sure this will happen in the future is I have a separate project and just briefly talk about it. but it's talking about it's called Your Story, Your Terms. It's a framework on how to help people with first hand accounts, first-person stories tell their stories. And so just very quickly, it's really four parts. and I'm doing this with the contract with the with the with the client right now, but it's really helping the client or helping the storyteller identify what they believe, identify, you know, what they've lived, identify what they want to change, and probably most importantly, what still stays theirs. Just as Magdalena said, it's very critical that we're not there to re-traumatize, we're not there to reopen wounds. We want them to tell their stories in a way that is on their terms, but that they don't have to bear everything and say everything to create harm. You know, the the goal is is to get the listener to understand what the situation is through storytelling, through through their own story in a way that then helps themselves and helps the community.

Matt Pearl: How do you tell when you're hitting that line? Because it's you know, obviously it's subjective person to person, right? And there is that very tricky balance between telling a story that not just hits the the reader or viewer emotionally, but also really helps them understand why the services that in this case the Y provides are so valuable, right? And and you can't do that without op without letting them into a person's world to some degree. But you also have to figure out where is the point where, you know, that person might be re traumatized by this and where that person might be going beyond their comfort level. How do you figure out what that point is and how do you make sure that that's communicated with the person?

Frank Velásquez: I think this is really important because often clients, when I say clients, I'm talking about like the participants, they might feel an obligation to share their story because of how the organization helped them. So it's really the responsibility then of the organization to really identify are they ready to tell their story? Are there if they're still too close, or what parts of their story? And so I do feel your your question is asking, how do you know? I think for me it's I've seen participants cry, even before they tell their story. And you're like, they're really still close to their story. This project that I just mentioned a second ago, I probably had two people in there that are still very close to their story. And when we were practicing, one of them started to tear up and wasn't expecting it. So for me, it's just a reminder, you do not have to share every part of your story, share the parts that matter.

A bad practice in the past was no, you they gotta see you cry, that's what's gonna get the money. Not at the expense of that person, no way. And so just reminding them, consistently reminding them as they're practicing their story. Say enough. You do not have to say more than you are comfortable with. And so to me, again to answer your question, be ready, pay attention, look at those nonverbal signs especially. those are the things that are gonnahelp the participant maneuver through their story. Yeah, that's that's how I would look at it.

Matt Pearl: Yeah, and there's such a value to that preemptive informing these individuals of their rights in this situation to some degree, right? And I think especially for those of us who are doing storytelling regularly, you know, I mean, whether it's weekly or daily or monthly, however often we do it, we do it far more frequently than an individual on the other side is being asked to share their story. So our familiarity with the process and our familiarity with you know with where lines can be drawn and and with what's okay and what's not okay, that is very different from somebody who is going through this for the first time, might have that sense, as you said, Frank, of almost owing it to the organization to help them out, right? And absolutely, the more we can do ahead of time.

To inform participants what is okay and and also not just what they can expect, but what they can not expect or what they, you know, what they don't have control over, I think is helpful. One thing, for example, you know, that I always try to share with people who aren't familiar with this is that once an organization puts out an email or a social media post with your story in it, they can't control the reaction to that. And they can't control, you know, once it's out there, it's out there. And I think we have to be very honest with folks about what they can expect and and also what's beyond our control as storytellers.

Frank, when you told me about Magdalena when you introduced us in an email, you said something really interesting. two things actually. The first thing you said was that she practices ethical storytelling without calling it that, which I think is is speaks to just the instinctual nature or the instinctive nature with which you do it, Magdalena, and that's wonderful. And then Frank, you also used a really specific term to describe the work you do with them. You said you look at their donor communications through an "asset based ethical storytelling" lens. I would love for you to elaborate on what that means. I'd love to hear from both of you about this. Frank we'll start with you, and then Magdalena we'll hear from you next.

Frank Velásquez: Yeah, so some context. As I mentioned, I used to be a nonprofit executive director for a small organization, and we made some errors, we made some mistakes, and a lot of it was how we framed our year-end appeals. we focused on all of the negative pieces of this certain person's story. She came across it after we didn't get her her sign-off on it.

She got a hold of the letter and was furious, rightfully furious. She says, I told you all of these these things about my life, and you focused on these negative aspects. And that has stuck with me, you know, to this day. And so it was really important that one, that I learned how to tell a participant story that dignifies and honors them. And it doesn't mean that you avoid talking about the hard stuff. What it means is that you lead with their aspirations. So if I say a story like Jaime, Jaime comes from a place of poverty. He lives in a rundown apartment versus Jaime wishes to be a doctor. Jaime wants to do these things in his life. And he lives in extreme poverty. It's just a way of reframing how we have these conversations because as listeners, our brains automatically go to certain places if it's in a deficit frame.

We might pity, which is not the goal. We do not want our communities to be pitied. we if I say at risk youth, historically our brains are gonna think, they must be black and brown kids. So how do we use language in a way that again dignifies, that is asset based, that can talk about these issues, but in a way that still, like I said, honors the community. That's how I approach asset frame language. I just mentioned a few. Don't you don't have to say at risk youth, just say youth. You don't have to say minorities, because honestly, we're not. So you can still say things like just identify the groups, you know, black populations, brown populations. There's little simple shifts we can do in our language that actually disrupts the patterns our brain makes, which then leads to better better storytelling, in my opinion, which then is ethical stor storytelling.

Matt Pearl: And Magdalena, I'd love to hear your take on this when it comes to the specific storytelling and communications that you're doing at the Y, how do you how does that inform the way that you write or the way that you present the stories that you're telling?

Magdalena Verdugo: Well, we've been doing some learning ourselves. I'll be totally transparent. And that's where I I do lean on Frank in reference to when we create a particular, you know, communication piece. We've shifted to including storytelling in our communication where maybe prior we were just sending out facts. You know, we met the needs of X number of women, you know, we did this and so forth. and recognize that storytelling is very impactful. but how do you do it in a way where it's inspiring, right? And where the the storyteller, I guess in in this case, the individual were highlighting the story so forth, when they read this piece of communication, feel empowered, feel good, not ashamed, not embarrassed, but really noting if you know, their the power in their story as to how far they may be come. Like Frank said, it's not about look at how poor I am and everything that I dealt with. We all are human. If we come from a humanistic perspective, we all have stories.

And we don't need to put a color to them, we don't need to put a gender to them. there's just stories of resiliency. And so how do we do that when we share, you know, those stories. And Frank, you a couple of times when we've worked together, it's really about not, you know, when we're sending communication to donors, it's not about making the donor feel great for what they're doing, but really sharing like the impact that their contribution has made on the individual, you know, in moving them forward or opening opportunities for them and so forth. So I always ask you know going back on the conversation earlier and talking about how stories come we at the YWCA do not go out and seek stories. We're not consistently going to our clients and saying, hey, let me see what's your story. I think that the fact that we start building trust with them, we start sharing what we know with them, they eventually open up and share. And what they're sharing is not the hardship. What they're sharing is how far they've come because they've hit that point in their life where they've realized, my God, I did this regardless of everything that's coming at me. and those are the stories that we lend to. And it's like, well, tell me a little bit more. And that's how we know they're ready. They're ready to share because they reach that aha moment for them.

I get excited when I see their faces and I recognize the story. I'm like, here it comes, you know, because they've they've gotten to that point where they love themselves. They've, you know, found their dignity, they found, you know, whatever that feeling may be, that they're ready. They're ready. And so to be able to ask them at a certain point, would you speak at a graduation? Would you be okay being highlighted in the newsletter that we have coming up or the annual report for them is yes, because they're coming from a place of like, I want to share how far along I've come. And that's the story we want to tell.

Matt (25:28.991)
I think so often when we talk about storytelling and and I do this all the time when I give workshops about video story video storytelling, I often say that you know the first thing the first step to doing it right is to do it. And that there's very little downside to, you know shooting a quick thirty second testimonial video of yourself or a behind the scenes video and posting it right. And yet I think there are quite a few storytelling skills that even for those of us who aren't doing it professionally, even if it's just people, not just people, but if it's people who are on our staffs who are not instinctual storytellers and they are being asked to help find stories, right? There are a lot of skills that I think are really important to cultivate and that take time to cultivate.

And what you both described, I think, is one of those skills. Figuring out how to tell stories that are engaging and that don't say necessarily that the problem is solved and that the issue that you address is, you know, no longer an issue, but also doing so in a way that uplifts the people that we serve and doesn't try to create sympathy or try to in any way look down on it.

I was giving a workshop a few weeks ago in Augusta, Georgia, and I showed a video, I showed a trailer that I did for a documentary. one of my last projects as a journalist was a documentary about student parents. So these were college students who were going to school while raising a child. And I played this trailer, it was about a minute and forty-five seconds, and somebody raised their hand and asked a question about why I chose the music that I chose. And it wasn't maudlin music, it wasn't, you know, a lot of teary eyed piano music. It was a little more ethereal. And one of the things I said was that because even in this short minute forty five trailer, I didn't want this to be a project where people were looking from the outside and and felt in any way like they were looking down upon these individuals. Because what these individuals were and are doing is noble. It's incredible. They are serving as parents and bettering themselves, and that's nothing to look down on. And if anything, it's something to admire. And so even the little choices like word choice, right? Like you were saying about s using the term at-risk youth, but you still have to know how to convey the convey the situation without using terms that that bring those innate reactions out in audience members.

And so it's a real skill, and I and I think it's so important that both you, Frank, as an instructor of those skills and Magdalena, you as somebody who leads a team and is shepherding stories that, you know, you're obviously both so aware of that and I think that's a huge, huge thing that nonprofit leaders across the country should really be aware of and take advantage of. Any other thoughts on that?

Frank Velásquez: I agree. You know, so I yeah so I think well Magda said something that I wanted to bring to light again. She talked about it's not just about the asset base part of it. The other part that she said was how we talk to donors or or any other, I don't know, stakeholder that were all part of this puzzle together. It's not the White Savior complex. So how do you avoid that? And then again, it is through language and it is through song choice. You know, in your example, Matt, it's how do we convey these messages that we're all in this together, that it's not an us versus them, or we need to help these people over here. We're all part of this community and everybody plays a role in that, especially the participant themselves. So to me, those are really good reminders of just it's asset-based language, but it's also talking in an inclusive way. That we're all part of this together.

Matt Pearl: I would love to hear Magdalena from you especially on this. What are the biggest hurdles that you run into as you keep this approach and you know, the biggest tension that you face, whether that's internally or whether that's, you know, just how to tow that line between telling a powerful story and protecting your client, what are the biggest challenges that you face and how do you navigate them?

Magdalena Verdugo: I think the biggest challenge is ensuring that we continue to provide trust and safety to our client clients and and protecting that and to always you know life happens and and we run our nonprofits and we go go go and you have so many stakeholders at hand that you want to respond that you need to respond to. And so I think the biggest challenge is not to get lost in that and to harm, to cause harm. And so yeah, I think that's we go, go, go and sometimes we we gotta be able to catch ourselves and not take a story, right? and so it it's always like not taking stories for the heartbreak of the story or not you know but more for for taking the honest stories I guess is it's a job it's like honing in on on what is being shared and and with honesty and trust and also protecting the the client and kind of knowing as much as you can when they're ready and when they're not ready.

And so that's I think the hardest thing. Because tell storytelling is healing. And that's one of the things that we hope to give a lot of our participants and the women that come through our programming is healing. At the same time that they're trying to maybe gain a skill or launch or small businesses. They're healing. And storytelling brings that about and so how do we continue to create spaces where they can share with each other and create those bonds with each other, recognizing that they're not alone and as leaders ourselves, being aware when the right time is. And that's a challenge. when you're sometimes being pushed to, you know, utilize stories.

Matt Pearl: Absolutely. And then Frank, of course, you work with Magdalena at the Y, you work with clients nationwide, you speak at non profit conferences nationwide, and those presentations are always a highlight and an event. If you ever have the chance to see Frank in your city, buy the ticket and do it, because he is outstanding and it's just such a riveting speaker. I would ask you a a very similar question, just you know, kind of from the outside view.

You know, obviously you have a a large network of folks in the nonprofit space and and so many folks you communicate with. What are the biggest questions that they bring to you when it comes to ethical storytelling and and and what are you telling them?

Frank Velásquez: I think I don't know if I have a biggest question. I think it's more of a theme. It's just a lot of the clients I work with, they just want to do it right. And often they just don't know how. So just giving them certain tools, doing again, you saw the list of like asset base language, what that looks like versus deficit frame language. So I think I think I don't know if it I don't know if this is me projecting it. I don't think it is.

But I I want to say that, well, I mean, I guess I hope I'm projecting it. that people they they want to do the best. They want to do the best by their clients, they want to do the best in how they those stories are told. They want to make sure that all of those things are happening. And so I lead with that. Like I know that they're not creating stories purposefully with harm. It's a realization that the story has been told historically with harm. And then it's like, okay, all right. So how do we stop doing that? And so then just giving them the belief and the care and the love that look, this this is what was, but it doesn't have to stay as is. We actually have an opportunity to change how the stories are told. And as I said earlier, that really is a disruption in the brain because we're not used to it.

So even like I love your example with the music. Like, people that disrupted their brain. They're like, wait, what? And your response was beautiful. It's like this isn't about a pity story. These are uplifting stories. So just a simple change in music choice, simple change in words. That is what I feel thematically people, nonprofit storytellers want to tell the stories authentically and with trauma informed care.

So that's what I see. It's not a big question. It's they just want to do it right and they want the tools.

Matt Pearl: It's that need to give ourselves grace as we grow.

Frank Velásquez: Absolutely. That's why I usually share when I'm presenting. I'll share the mistakes I've made. I've actually had full slide decks of mistakes that I've made. And and that's to help the people in the audience understand, look, even the presenters made his mistakes. So that doesn't mean it's the end of the world. It just means we can we can restart and we can do better.

Matt Pearl: Magdalena, Frank, I have so enjoyed this conversation. I need to have multiple guests more often. This was great. I am before we close out, I'm gonna ask you that famous last question all reporters love to ask. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to add? Magdalena, we'll start with you.

Magdalena Verdugo: My God. No, I think that I would just say for those that are working on storytelling, like we mentioned that give yourself grace. It takes time, it takes learning, it takes a couple of stumbles, knee scrapes, but get back up and move forward. I think that as long as you are building trust, that you're slowing down to listen and that you see that storytelling as a partnership, you're just going to be you're gonna be you're gonna be great in in being the the tool or the the platform by which your clients can show.

Matt Pearl: Leaning on each other, the storytellers on our team and and the people who who we serve and who are sharing their stories so beautifully with us. Thanks so much, Magdalena. Frank, last question for you. Anything that you wanted to add?

Frank Velásquez: I think I just want to reemphasize, you know, I think often in the space of nonprofits, we capture the stories of the client and then tell the story. But there's a lot of organizations that will ask their clients to tell their own stories, let's say, like at a Gala event or something. That's the part where I really, well, that's one of my skill sets is to help that person then tell their stories in that venue. So, I would just say if anybody out there needs that type of assistance or works with a lot of clients where they have them tell their own stories, I think it's I would love to get in touch with them simply because of the fact that we don't often look at it from that lens and we want to make sure that that person is telling their story in a way that is trauma informed, that is helpful, but that they also know that they own their story on their term.

Matt Pearl: He is Frank Velasquez and she is Magdalena Verdugo, the CEO of the YWCA of Southern Arizona. You can find her and the Y at ywcatucson.org. You can find Frank and 4 Da Hood at 4dahood.com. Magdalena and Frank, thanks so much for your time.

And that is episode sixteen of DOT ORG. If you found this helpful and want others to hear it too, a great rating or review wherever you get your podcast goes a long way. Please take the time if you can. And check out my work at Pearl Impact Media. Video storytelling can be so beneficial for organizations. I would love to work with yours. Book a free consultation right now at Pearl Impact Media dot com. All right, friends, I am Matt Pearl. This has been DOT ORG. Thank you for listening. See you next time.